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Post by Wes Penre on Jul 28, 2020 17:40:49 GMT
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Post by Naveen on Jul 28, 2020 19:12:20 GMT
Wes, Before you took up the gnostic texts, my understanding was that there were three kinds of human beings. One. Spirit/ genuine soul/ artificial soul Two. genuine soul/ artificial soul (so called star seeds) Three. Only artificial soul What has changed in this understanding. When the kenoma is destroyed will the artificial souls also cease to exist
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Post by vitalinfo on Jul 28, 2020 21:37:53 GMT
Many times we said:"But we are Sophia" but are we? Are we a soul or are we spirit?
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Post by Wes Penre on Jul 28, 2020 22:33:26 GMT
Many times we said:"But we are Sophia" but are we? Are we a soul or are we spirit? Yes, we learn as we go along. Sophia's Spirit is inside us. You and I have the same Spirit--Sophia's. There is no individuality difference in Spirit between you and me--it's the same. It IS Sophia. The soul is different. As a soul, I am different from you--we are individuated units of consciousness, as Dr. Tom Campbell would say. Once Spirit is withdrawn from us, it goes back to Sophia, and she becomes whole. However, the soul that you consider being you--your own consciousness--does not go back to Sophia. It will live on in Orion as a creator god. So, it's not that Vitalinfo will live as one "person" in Orion and another person in the Pleroma as Sophia. Sophia is Sophia and you are Vitalinfo. It's not that you will be a "split personality." However, part of Sophia's Spirit will live on in Orion, which is HER creation, so we, as souls, will be in contact with her through the Spirit that is invested in the Orion creation (Sophia's universe). This is how I have come to see it after studying the GT and also taken the WPP into consideration. There were some parts of the WPP, when I was in a dialogue with my Source that I didn't understand at that point because I didn't have the bigger picture (hadn't read the GT).
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Post by Wes Penre on Jul 28, 2020 22:43:50 GMT
Wes, Before you took up the gnostic texts, my understanding was that there were three kinds of human beings. One. Spirit/ genuine soul/ artificial soul Two. genuine soul/ artificial soul (so called star seeds) Three. Only artificial soul What has changed in this understanding. When the kenoma is destroyed will the artificial souls also cease to exist Exchange 'artificial soul' with 'artificial spirit' or 'counterfeit spirit.' The two latter terms are used in the Gnostic texts. When Ariel and I did our research, before we had encountered the gnostic texts, we realized that a part of us was "artificial," and we interpreted that as being an artificial SOUL because of the soul splinter in the Between Lives Area. The artificial spirit is the archontic attachment to all of us humans, as described in the Gnostic texts and our Gnosis Series. It's mainly located in our physical bodies, but we carry some of that with us after body death in form of archontic "beliefs" and manipulation, which keep the archontic forces attached. When the Kenoma is being consumed, the archons will eventually be destroyed together with the Kenoma, so they won't be directly attached to us anymore. However, even if the archons would be destroyed tomorrow, most humans still carry attachments to this world and beliefs that we've caught from the archons. We need to try to get rid of these attachments as much as we can, starting now. It's probably not possible to get rid of them all, so long as we're in the Kenoma. But once at the Gates of Orion, we must be WILLING to shed all that in order to be able to enter Orion at all. We will get help with that, but in order for it to work, we must be willing to surrender everything we learned and took to heart while living here in the Kenoma.
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Post by sicily on Jul 29, 2020 0:15:55 GMT
Well Wes, gotta say, you are gettin real good at explaining this complex stuff to us, I guess, practice makes perfect and Ariel is no slacker in the writing department either. Her GT piece on Sophia creating without her consort and creating Y, was a fine piece of work. I still think their maybe some spiritless people running around, maybe they are the clones that the Matrix guy (Human Simulacra) talks about who can only be animated from short periods of time then have to be replaced.
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Post by lindi732 on Jul 29, 2020 0:32:01 GMT
Wes Penre , this question is about the soul and timelines. I understand that we are individual units of consciousness. It is also my understanding that “lindi” is the soul consciousness that exists in this LIFETIME during this TIMELINE. Does it still hold true that there are other parts (fractals) of my soul consciousness that also exist on other timelines with different personalities? Are there “pieces” of soul which is part of the lindi soul that currently exist, let’s say in 1508, another in 1765, etc.? If this IS the case, will these soul fractals/splinters/pieces exit when lindi exits? Would they need to have gnosis to leave?
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Post by lindi732 on Jul 29, 2020 0:51:50 GMT
Wes, Before you took up the gnostic texts, my understanding was that there were three kinds of human beings. One. Spirit/ genuine soul/ artificial soul Two. genuine soul/ artificial soul (so called star seeds) Three. Only artificial soul What has changed in this understanding. When the kenoma is destroyed will the artificial souls also cease to exist Exchange 'artificial soul' with 'artificial spirit' or 'counterfeit spirit.' The two latter terms are used in the Gnostic texts. When Ariel and I did our research, before we had encountered the gnostic texts, we realized that a part of us was "artificial," and we interpreted that as being an artificial SOUL because of the soul splinter in the Between Lives Area. The artificial spirit is the archontic attachment to all of us humans, as described in the Gnostic texts and our Gnosis Series. It's mainly located in our physical bodies, but we carry some of that with us after body death in form of archontic "beliefs" and manipulation, which keep the archontic forces attached. When the Kenoma is being consumed, the archons will eventually be destroyed together with the Kenoma, so they won't be directly attached to us anymore. However, even if the archons would be destroyed tomorrow, most humans still carry attachments to this world and beliefs that we've caught from the archons. We need to try to get rid of these attachments as much as we can, starting now. It's probably not possible to get rid of them all, so long as we're in the Kenoma. But once at the Gates of Orion, we must be WILLING to shed all that in order to be able to enter Orion at all. We will get help with that, but in order for it to work, we must be willing to surrender everything we learned and took to heart while living here in the Kenoma. “ We need to try to get rid of these attachments as much as we can, starting now. It's probably not possible to get rid of them all, so long as we're in the Kenoma. But once at the Gates of Orion, we must be WILLING to shed all that in order to be able to enter Orion at all. We will get help with that, but in order for it to work, we must be willing to surrender everything we learned and took to heart while living here in the Kenoma.”
When you say that we must be willing to surrender everything before we can enter Orion, what happens to just having Gnosis or just exiting the hole in the grid to escape this construct? If for some reason a person has not fully rid himself of some type of archontic attachment, for example anger or hatred, will that person not make it out of the “Patrix” and into Orion? Is the important word here being WILLING to let go? I can see how there may be people who obtain gnosis or just learned that they can exit through a hole in the grid but still haven’t had time to work on getting rid of ALL attachments. Will they not be allowed in Orion and face another recycling?
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Post by Wes Penre on Jul 29, 2020 1:09:24 GMT
Exchange 'artificial soul' with 'artificial spirit' or 'counterfeit spirit.' The two latter terms are used in the Gnostic texts. When Ariel and I did our research, before we had encountered the gnostic texts, we realized that a part of us was "artificial," and we interpreted that as being an artificial SOUL because of the soul splinter in the Between Lives Area. The artificial spirit is the archontic attachment to all of us humans, as described in the Gnostic texts and our Gnosis Series. It's mainly located in our physical bodies, but we carry some of that with us after body death in form of archontic "beliefs" and manipulation, which keep the archontic forces attached. When the Kenoma is being consumed, the archons will eventually be destroyed together with the Kenoma, so they won't be directly attached to us anymore. However, even if the archons would be destroyed tomorrow, most humans still carry attachments to this world and beliefs that we've caught from the archons. We need to try to get rid of these attachments as much as we can, starting now. It's probably not possible to get rid of them all, so long as we're in the Kenoma. But once at the Gates of Orion, we must be WILLING to shed all that in order to be able to enter Orion at all. We will get help with that, but in order for it to work, we must be willing to surrender everything we learned and took to heart while living here in the Kenoma. “ We need to try to get rid of these attachments as much as we can, starting now. It's probably not possible to get rid of them all, so long as we're in the Kenoma. But once at the Gates of Orion, we must be WILLING to shed all that in order to be able to enter Orion at all. We will get help with that, but in order for it to work, we must be willing to surrender everything we learned and took to heart while living here in the Kenoma.”
When you say that we must be willing to surrender everything before we can enter Orion, what happens to just having Gnosis or just exiting the hole in the grid to escape this construct? If for some reason a person has not fully rid himself of some type of archontic attachment, for example anger or hatred, will that person not make it out of the “Patrix” and into Orion? Is the important word here being WILLING to let go? I can see how there may be people who obtain gnosis or just learned that they can exit through a hole in the grid but still haven’t had time to work on getting rid of ALL attachments. Will they not be allowed in Orion and face another recycling? The way I see it is that a soul that has achieved Gnosis can distinguish between what's of the Kenoma and what is their spiritual values. Even though none of us probably will be able to get rid of all our attachments and archontic beliefs before we exit, we need to be willing to let go of all that, once we stand at the entry of Orion. We can't bring any archontic attachments into Orion (not even beliefs, because that's an attachment, too). If we're willing to do that, we will get help getting rid of it. However, a soul who is not of Knowledge might want to hold onto things that they can't bring into Orion. No one will be forced to, but those souls will probably go to the "holding station," where they will dwell under some circumstances where they get a second chance to rid themselves of their baggage. You mentioned anger and hatred as examples. I can imagine that the soul will be asked if they are ready to get rid of that. I can also imagine there are those who don't want to. E.g. they might blame others for certain condition and won't let things go, and they don't want to look at it from any other perspective. So, openness and willingness to let go.
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Post by Tim on Jul 29, 2020 10:10:24 GMT
Wes, are you sure we are destined to stay in Orion? Because there are passages that say we are destined for the Pleroma, I copied some here:
From On the Origin of the World: Consequently, four races exist. There are three that belong to the kings of the eighth heaven. But the fourth race is kingless and perfect, being the highest of all. For these shall enter the holy place of their father. And they will gain rest in repose and eternal, unspeakable glory and unending joy.
Also from On the Origin of the World: When the prophecy and the account of those that are king becomes known and is fulfilled by those who are called perfect, those who - in contrast - have not become perfect in the unbegotten father will receive their glory in their realms and in the kingdoms of the immortals: but they will never enter the kingless realm. For everyone must go to the place from which he has come. Indeed, by his acts and his knowledge, each person will make his (own) nature known.
The Apocalypse of Paul: I greeted all those who were in the ninth heaven, and we went up to the tenth heaven. And I greeted my fellow spirits.
And there is also Irenaeus' Against Heresies: But they assert that the spiritual principles which have been sown by Achamoth, being disciplined and nourished here from that time until now in righteous souls (because when given forth by her they were yet but weak), at last attaining to perfection, shall be given as brides to the angels of the Saviour, while their animal souls of necessity rest for ever with the Demiurge in the intermediate place.
So it was my understanding that we will enter the Pleroma in Spirit, while our souls that we used in this Universe will become entities on their own, without us inside them.
What are your thoughts on this?
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Post by sahib on Jul 29, 2020 10:38:58 GMT
Wes, are you sure we are destined to stay in Orion? Because there are passages that say we are destined for the Pleroma, I copied some here: From On the Origin of the World: Consequently, four races exist. There are three that belong to the kings of the eighth heaven. But the fourth race is kingless and perfect, being the highest of all. For these shall enter the holy place of their father. And they will gain rest in repose and eternal, unspeakable glory and unending joy. Also from On the Origin of the World: When the prophecy and the account of those that are king becomes known and is fulfilled by those who are called perfect, those who - in contrast - have not become perfect in the unbegotten father will receive their glory in their realms and in the kingdoms of the immortals: but they will never enter the kingless realm. For everyone must go to the place from which he has come. Indeed, by his acts and his knowledge, each person will make his (own) nature known. The Apocalypse of Paul: I greeted all those who were in the ninth heaven, and we went up to the tenth heaven. And I greeted my fellow spirits. And there is also Irenaeus' Against Heresies: But they assert that the spiritual principles which have been sown by Achamoth, being disciplined and nourished here from that time until now in righteous souls (because when given forth by her they were yet but weak), at last attaining to perfection, shall be given as brides to the angels of the Saviour, while their animal souls of necessity rest for ever with the Demiurge in the intermediate place. So it was my understanding that we will enter the Pleroma in Spirit, while our souls that we used in this Universe will become entities on their own, without us inside them. What are your thoughts on this? Very good question from you Tim because I'm of the same opinion. For me, it was always going back to the Father, to Source. For me as a soul, not just the Spirit of Sophia. This matter is very difficult for us humans to grasp, hence the saying, "The Lord works in mysterious ways." More than 60 years of my life I'm convinced that one day I will be reunited with Source, and in what capacity I don't know, those are Heavenly Affairs, that's not what I' m about. Yeah, these passages that you're quoting that I knew, they're also confirmations that I had about this. On the other hand, the possibilities we would have once reunited with Source, could be as Wes describes in the last Musing article. For example, our creative ambitions could take place in the 8th realm. We will be the same as the Aeons for that matter, the accompanying text doesn't come to mind right now, I would have to look it up.
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cheryl
Junior Member

Posts: 73
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Post by cheryl on Jul 29, 2020 12:09:34 GMT
Many times we said:"But we are Sophia" but are we? Are we a soul or are we spirit? Yes, we learn as we go along. Sophia's Spirit is inside us. You and I have the same Spirit--Sophia's. There is no individuality difference in Spirit between you and me--it's the same. It IS Sophia. The soul is different. As a soul, I am different from you--we are individuated units of consciousness, as Dr. Tom Campbell would say. Once Spirit is withdrawn from us, it goes back to Sophia, and she becomes whole. However, the soul that you consider being you--your own consciousness--does not go back to Sophia. It will live on in Orion as a creator god. So, it's not that Vitalinfo will live as one "person" in Orion and another person in the Pleroma as Sophia. Sophia is Sophia and you are Vitalinfo. It's not that you will be a "split personality." However, part of Sophia's Spirit will live on in Orion, which is HER creation, so we, as souls, will be in contact with her through the Spirit that is invested in the Orion creation (Sophia's universe). This is how I have come to see it after studying the GT and also taken the WPP into consideration. There were some parts of the WPP, when I was in a dialogue with my Source that I didn't understand at that point because I didn't have the bigger picture (hadn't read the GT). Maybe this has been clarified before and I’m not remembering. We only have Sophia’s Spirit inside of us in the Kenoma. Once it is withdrawn from us we are just soul in Orion? Are we a fire of Sophia in Orion? We’ll be a creator god in Orion and our connection with Sophia will be there because of being in Sophia’s creation? Our experiences while being in the Kenoma are part of Sophia and will be part of the soul that is my consciousness in Orion? Thinking about it in that way feels like separation and I think that is confusing me.
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Post by Wes Penre on Jul 29, 2020 15:13:03 GMT
Wes, are you sure we are destined to stay in Orion? Because there are passages that say we are destined for the Pleroma, I copied some here: From On the Origin of the World: Consequently, four races exist. There are three that belong to the kings of the eighth heaven. But the fourth race is kingless and perfect, being the highest of all. For these shall enter the holy place of their father. And they will gain rest in repose and eternal, unspeakable glory and unending joy. Also from On the Origin of the World: When the prophecy and the account of those that are king becomes known and is fulfilled by those who are called perfect, those who - in contrast - have not become perfect in the unbegotten father will receive their glory in their realms and in the kingdoms of the immortals: but they will never enter the kingless realm. For everyone must go to the place from which he has come. Indeed, by his acts and his knowledge, each person will make his (own) nature known. The Apocalypse of Paul: I greeted all those who were in the ninth heaven, and we went up to the tenth heaven. And I greeted my fellow spirits. And there is also Irenaeus' Against Heresies: But they assert that the spiritual principles which have been sown by Achamoth, being disciplined and nourished here from that time until now in righteous souls (because when given forth by her they were yet but weak), at last attaining to perfection, shall be given as brides to the angels of the Saviour, while their animal souls of necessity rest for ever with the Demiurge in the intermediate place. So it was my understanding that we will enter the Pleroma in Spirit, while our souls that we used in this Universe will become entities on their own, without us inside them. What are your thoughts on this? Thanks for posting this, Tim. It's a good argument. I have pondered this a lot, too, considering different sources. This is what I've personally concluded: Me, whom I know as "Wes," is not Spirit, it's the soul with its soul memories and experiences that have been accumulated over lifetimes. This is the ego, whom I consider being my "personality." It's different from Spirit, which is not my personality. Moreover, most people are not even connected to Spirit inside--they are almost completely reactive, acting on archontic emotions, etc. The Gnostic texts call it "ignorance/darkness." Then, we connect to Spirit after having achieved Knowledge from Christ's Message, and Spirit starts flowing through us and guiding us. We say we are "awake." We know that Spirit is Sophia/Christ, but she lent us sparks of this Spirit, so we can help Sophia uncreate the Kenoma. So, we have two different things going for us--we have the soul, which is made of star-fire (we are star beings and a star race). The soul is created in the Kenoma and becomes the person. But the soul can't enter the Pleroma because it's made of bio-electricity, which is non-existent in the Pleroma. Sophia, on the other hand, is of the Pleroma. She will retrieve the Spirit she's invested in us and return from whence she came. What we call Orion is her Creation--her balanced Universe because of the reconnection with her consort--Christ. Souls stay in Orion, while Sophia returns. But because Orion is her Universe, her Spirit is still invested in her own created Universe, and we, the souls, have Gnosis with Spirit all around us. I can't see how we, the souls with their personalities can enter the Pleroma, unless there is something unknown that we still need to figure out. I also have it from a very credible source while writing the WPP that the souls go to Orion and become Creator Gods. So, Sophia creates HER Universe (Orion) and we, the souls, create in HER Universe, and everything expands. I am aware what the Gnostic texts say about the different kinds of humans, but I have difficulties understanding how some souls/personalities can enter the Pleroma. However, it's a great subject for discussion.
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Post by Wes Penre on Jul 29, 2020 15:54:03 GMT
Wes, are you sure we are destined to stay in Orion? Because there are passages that say we are destined for the Pleroma, I copied some here: From On the Origin of the World: Consequently, four races exist. There are three that belong to the kings of the eighth heaven. But the fourth race is kingless and perfect, being the highest of all. For these shall enter the holy place of their father. And they will gain rest in repose and eternal, unspeakable glory and unending joy. Also from On the Origin of the World: When the prophecy and the account of those that are king becomes known and is fulfilled by those who are called perfect, those who - in contrast - have not become perfect in the unbegotten father will receive their glory in their realms and in the kingdoms of the immortals: but they will never enter the kingless realm. For everyone must go to the place from which he has come. Indeed, by his acts and his knowledge, each person will make his (own) nature known. The Apocalypse of Paul: I greeted all those who were in the ninth heaven, and we went up to the tenth heaven. And I greeted my fellow spirits. And there is also Irenaeus' Against Heresies: But they assert that the spiritual principles which have been sown by Achamoth, being disciplined and nourished here from that time until now in righteous souls (because when given forth by her they were yet but weak), at last attaining to perfection, shall be given as brides to the angels of the Saviour, while their animal souls of necessity rest for ever with the Demiurge in the intermediate place. So it was my understanding that we will enter the Pleroma in Spirit, while our souls that we used in this Universe will become entities on their own, without us inside them. What are your thoughts on this? Second reply to Tim: This is another way of looking at it: the "perfected" human has all the four characteristics of human inside them, and the perfected part goes to the Pleroma (the Kingless Realm), which is Spirit. The rest is soul in different stages of development. So, souls can never enter the Pleroma, like it says in the Gnostic texts (GT). If we read On the Origin of the World from that perspective, it makes a little more sense to me. And soul can never merge with Source because soul is of the material universe, just like it says in your quoted gospel. But it's not 100% clear. It can also be interpreted as if the "fourth race," which is perfected, goes to the Pleroma. But is it only Spirit, and the soul is dissolved, or does it imply that Spirit AND soul go to the Pleroma? Although it can be interpreted in different way, the soul/personality going to the Pleroma contradicts what soul really is--it's of the material universe and would be destroyed by default if theoretically it was able to enter the Pleroma. So, even if God would like to give some humans the "reward" to go to the Pleroma, it's not possible because that not from whence the soul came. Like it says in your quote--everyone needs to go back from where they originated. Unless more information is available, we can only debate like we do now. I have a problem with Paul in general, so I won't comment on him on this subject. I find much of his teachings that I have read corrupted.
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Post by Wes Penre on Jul 29, 2020 16:10:53 GMT
Yes, we learn as we go along. Sophia's Spirit is inside us. You and I have the same Spirit--Sophia's. There is no individuality difference in Spirit between you and me--it's the same. It IS Sophia. The soul is different. As a soul, I am different from you--we are individuated units of consciousness, as Dr. Tom Campbell would say. Once Spirit is withdrawn from us, it goes back to Sophia, and she becomes whole. However, the soul that you consider being you--your own consciousness--does not go back to Sophia. It will live on in Orion as a creator god. So, it's not that Vitalinfo will live as one "person" in Orion and another person in the Pleroma as Sophia. Sophia is Sophia and you are Vitalinfo. It's not that you will be a "split personality." However, part of Sophia's Spirit will live on in Orion, which is HER creation, so we, as souls, will be in contact with her through the Spirit that is invested in the Orion creation (Sophia's universe). This is how I have come to see it after studying the GT and also taken the WPP into consideration. There were some parts of the WPP, when I was in a dialogue with my Source that I didn't understand at that point because I didn't have the bigger picture (hadn't read the GT). Maybe this has been clarified before and I’m not remembering. We only have Sophia’s Spirit inside of us in the Kenoma. Once it is withdrawn from us we are just soul in Orion? Are we a fire of Sophia in Orion? We’ll be a creator god in Orion and our connection with Sophia will be there because of being in Sophia’s creation? Our experiences while being in the Kenoma are part of Sophia and will be part of the soul that is my consciousness in Orion? Thinking about it in that way feels like separation and I think that is confusing me. Thank you for these questions, Cheryl! I'm happy when people write down their thoughts  Yes, Spirit is a loan. It was attached to us in order to help Sophia retrieve the Kenoma into her creation. Right now, Orion is already lit up with Spirit--there is no darkness anymore in Orion. In the Kenoma, there is darkness because Knowledge/Light has yet to enter these Heavens. When that has been done, everything is lit up, and ignorance become knowledge, i.e. the Kenoma will be absorbed into Orion, if we look at it from an ultimate standpoint. Sophia's creation will then be perfect. So, Spirit that is currently attached to us will be retrieved eventually. It was only needed for our Mission. Sophia will return to the Pleroma, but part of her Spirit will still be very much present in Orion. Her Universe (Orion) is created by Spirit, so Spirit will definitely be present. Cheryl will be a soul/creator god in Orion with Gnosis within you and all around. Sophia created Orion (the material universe). We, as souls, are the inhabitants of her creation. We, in turn, create WITHIN her Universe (Orion). So, the Universe expands as our creations expand. Sophia expands because we expand, and ultimately, the Monad/God "expands" by learning more about Itself. We will be very much aware of Sophia's presence in Orion because she is everywhere in her own creation and we have Gnosis and can pick up Spirit from everywhere--no more ignorance. So yes, we will have a connection with her. No more amnesia. You bring your experiences in the Kenoma with you into Orion, but only as experiences, not as trauma. And it IS separation. The only Oneness is the Monad Itself before It emanated the Aeons. That was the first separation. We are meant to be separated in order to experience from many different perspectives/dimensions. Our purpose is not to merge with Source/Monad/God.
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Post by lindi732 on Jul 29, 2020 17:31:25 GMT
I love this. I feel the truth in it. It’s beautiful to know that WE, being Sophia’s creation will continue HER creation by becoming Creators in our own right within the Orion which is also her creation. The way I understand this is once Sophia retrieves all her spirit and the archontic universe is destroyed, all will be the way it should. I’m at peace with this, and so very grateful that I am one of her awakened spirits❣️🌺
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Post by sahib on Jul 29, 2020 17:37:26 GMT
Wes, are you sure we are destined to stay in Orion? Because there are passages that say we are destined for the Pleroma, I copied some here: From On the Origin of the World: Consequently, four races exist. There are three that belong to the kings of the eighth heaven. But the fourth race is kingless and perfect, being the highest of all. For these shall enter the holy place of their father. And they will gain rest in repose and eternal, unspeakable glory and unending joy. Also from On the Origin of the World: When the prophecy and the account of those that are king becomes known and is fulfilled by those who are called perfect, those who - in contrast - have not become perfect in the unbegotten father will receive their glory in their realms and in the kingdoms of the immortals: but they will never enter the kingless realm. For everyone must go to the place from which he has come. Indeed, by his acts and his knowledge, each person will make his (own) nature known. The Apocalypse of Paul: I greeted all those who were in the ninth heaven, and we went up to the tenth heaven. And I greeted my fellow spirits. And there is also Irenaeus' Against Heresies: But they assert that the spiritual principles which have been sown by Achamoth, being disciplined and nourished here from that time until now in righteous souls (because when given forth by her they were yet but weak), at last attaining to perfection, shall be given as brides to the angels of the Saviour, while their animal souls of necessity rest for ever with the Demiurge in the intermediate place. So it was my understanding that we will enter the Pleroma in Spirit, while our souls that we used in this Universe will become entities on their own, without us inside them. What are your thoughts on this? Second reply to Tim: This is another way of looking at it: the "perfected" human has all the four characteristics of human inside them, and the perfected part goes to the Pleroma (the Kingless Realm), which is Spirit. The rest is soul in different stages of development. So, souls can never enter the Pleroma, like it says in the Gnostic texts (GT). If we read On the Origin of the World from that perspective, it makes a little more sense to me. And soul can never merge with Source because soul is of the material universe, just like it says in your quoted gospel. But it's not 100% clear. It can also be interpreted as if the "fourth race," which is perfected, goes to the Pleroma. But is it only Spirit, and the soul is dissolved, or does it imply that Spirit AND soul go to the Pleroma? Although it can be interpreted in different way, the soul/personality going to the Pleroma contradicts what soul really is--it's of the material universe and would be destroyed by default if theoretically it was able to enter the Pleroma. So, even if God would like to give some humans the "reward" to go to the Pleroma, it's not possible because that not from whence the soul came. Like it says in your quote--everyone needs to go back from where they originated. Unless more information is available, we can only debate like we do now. I have a problem with Paul in general, so I won't comment on him on this subject. I find much of his teachings that I have read corrupted. Wes wrote: I can't see how we, the souls with their personalities can enter the Pleroma, unless there is something unknown that we still need to figure out.
And also: But it's not 100% clear. It can also be interpreted as if the "fourth race," which is perfected, goes to the Pleroma. But is it only Spirit, and the soul is dissolved, or does it imply that Spirit AND soul go to the Pleroma?
In my opinion there IS something ‘unknown’ indeed, something ‘mysterious’, a divine transformation process. What we call ‘Gnosis’ is the connection with Spirit/Sophia, the biblical version of “Baptised with the Holy Spirit” and as John the Baptist added also: with ‘fire’, when Yeshua asked John to baptize him in water. (Matt 3:11) This means to me that Gnosis is a ‘baptism’ in the Spirit of Sophia with ‘fire’. And ‘fire’ cleanses and transforms the soul and the soul becomes ‘kingless and perfect’, detached and free from the yoke of Ignorance, from darkness. Ready to enter Home/Pleroma once. That's why I’ve made a distinction between #1) soul/body/spirit, #2) soul/spirit/body, and #3) spirited-soul/body. #1 an ignorant soul, voluntary or not . #2 an 'awakened' soul who has' knowledge of redemption' but hasn't received Gnosis or cleaning with ‘fire’, yet . #3 a soul that has received Gnosis and has been transformed by this 'cleansing fire' and made 'perfect' as a result. Very often one speaks of a 'rebirth', of being born again, becoming a new soul, a perfect soul. It is logical that this ‘spirited-soul’ needs to be 'worked on' afterwards, but that doesn’t make the soul less perfect, for it was already declared perfect in God's eyes by Gnosis/rebirth. In conclusion, it implies that Spirit AND soul, a transformed, perfect spirited-soul being goes to the Pleroma. There it is considered brother and sister of the Aeons. I'm still trying to find the accompanying text, but for now I'll quote this text from "The Sophia of Jesus Christ" ( NHC III, excerpt 117). "Whoever, then, knows the Father in pure knowledge will depart to the Father and repose in Unbegotten Father. But whoever knows him defectively will depart to the defect and the rest of the Eighth.”
This text it clearly states that: ‘in pure knowledge = Gnosis’ will depart to Source in the Pleroma, while those know Him ‘defectively = without Gnosis’ stays in the 8th realm. Makes sense?
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Post by vitalinfo on Jul 29, 2020 18:48:23 GMT
Second reply to Tim: This is another way of looking at it: the "perfected" human has all the four characteristics of human inside them, and the perfected part goes to the Pleroma (the Kingless Realm), which is Spirit. The rest is soul in different stages of development. So, souls can never enter the Pleroma, like it says in the Gnostic texts (GT). If we read On the Origin of the World from that perspective, it makes a little more sense to me. And soul can never merge with Source because soul is of the material universe, just like it says in your quoted gospel. But it's not 100% clear. It can also be interpreted as if the "fourth race," which is perfected, goes to the Pleroma. But is it only Spirit, and the soul is dissolved, or does it imply that Spirit AND soul go to the Pleroma? Although it can be interpreted in different way, the soul/personality going to the Pleroma contradicts what soul really is--it's of the material universe and would be destroyed by default if theoretically it was able to enter the Pleroma. So, even if God would like to give some humans the "reward" to go to the Pleroma, it's not possible because that not from whence the soul came. Like it says in your quote--everyone needs to go back from where they originated. Unless more information is available, we can only debate like we do now. I have a problem with Paul in general, so I won't comment on him on this subject. I find much of his teachings that I have read corrupted. Wes wrote: I can't see how we, the souls with their personalities can enter the Pleroma, unless there is something unknown that we still need to figure out.
And also: But it's not 100% clear. It can also be interpreted as if the "fourth race," which is perfected, goes to the Pleroma. But is it only Spirit, and the soul is dissolved, or does it imply that Spirit AND soul go to the Pleroma?
In my opinion there IS something ‘unknown’ indeed, something ‘mysterious’, a divine transformation process. What we call ‘Gnosis’ is the connection with Spirit/Sophia, the biblical version of “Baptised with the Holy Spirit” and as John the Baptist added also: with ‘fire’, when Yeshua asked John to baptize him in water. (Matt 3:11) This means to me that Gnosis is a ‘baptism’ in the Spirit of Sophia with ‘fire’. And ‘fire’ cleanses and transforms the soul and the soul becomes ‘kingless and perfect’, detached and free from the yoke of Ignorance, from darkness. Ready to enter Home/Pleroma once. That's why I’ve made a distinction between #1) soul/body/spirit, #2) soul/spirit/body, and #3) spirited-soul/body. #1 an ignorant soul, voluntary or not . #2 an 'awakened' soul who has' knowledge of redemption' but hasn't received Gnosis or cleaning with ‘fire’, yet . #3 a soul that has received Gnosis and has been transformed by this 'cleansing fire' and made 'perfect' as a result. Very often one speaks of a 'rebirth', of being born again, becoming a new soul, a perfect soul. It is logical that this ‘spirited-soul’ needs to be 'worked on' afterwards, but that doesn’t make the soul less perfect, for it was already declared perfect in God's eyes by Gnosis/rebirth. In conclusion, it implies that Spirit AND soul, a transformed, perfect spirited-soul being goes to the Pleroma. There it is considered brother and sister of the Aeons. I'm still trying to find the accompanying text, but for now I'll quote this text from "The Sophia of Jesus Christ" ( NHC III, excerpt 117). "Whoever, then, knows the Father in pure knowledge will depart to the Father and repose in Unbegotten Father. But whoever knows him defectively will depart to the defect and the rest of the Eighth.”
This text it clearly states that: ‘in pure knowledge = Gnosis’ will depart to Source in the Pleroma, while those know Him ‘defectively = without Gnosis’ stays in the 8th realm. Makes sense? It does make sense to an extent. The problem that remains is that the soul consists of nano flames which is energy. In the Pleroma there is no energy. When this is correct a soul could not be in the Pleroma, as Wes stated in his post, unless the soul is purified to an extent that it transforms into a soul without energy. Is that what you mean when you use the term spirited soul or perfect soul? It must be a different soul meaning no energy to be part of the Pleroma don’t you agree? Can we then still speak of a soul? Or has the soul become spirit?
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Post by sahib on Jul 29, 2020 19:56:37 GMT
Wes wrote: I can't see how we, the souls with their personalities can enter the Pleroma, unless there is something unknown that we still need to figure out.
And also: But it's not 100% clear. It can also be interpreted as if the "fourth race," which is perfected, goes to the Pleroma. But is it only Spirit, and the soul is dissolved, or does it imply that Spirit AND soul go to the Pleroma?
In my opinion there IS something ‘unknown’ indeed, something ‘mysterious’, a divine transformation process. What we call ‘Gnosis’ is the connection with Spirit/Sophia, the biblical version of “Baptised with the Holy Spirit” and as John the Baptist added also: with ‘fire’, when Yeshua asked John to baptize him in water. (Matt 3:11) This means to me that Gnosis is a ‘baptism’ in the Spirit of Sophia with ‘fire’. And ‘fire’ cleanses and transforms the soul and the soul becomes ‘kingless and perfect’, detached and free from the yoke of Ignorance, from darkness. Ready to enter Home/Pleroma once. That's why I’ve made a distinction between #1) soul/body/spirit, #2) soul/spirit/body, and #3) spirited-soul/body. #1 an ignorant soul, voluntary or not . #2 an 'awakened' soul who has' knowledge of redemption' but hasn't received Gnosis or cleaning with ‘fire’, yet . #3 a soul that has received Gnosis and has been transformed by this 'cleansing fire' and made 'perfect' as a result. Very often one speaks of a 'rebirth', of being born again, becoming a new soul, a perfect soul. It is logical that this ‘spirited-soul’ needs to be 'worked on' afterwards, but that doesn’t make the soul less perfect, for it was already declared perfect in God's eyes by Gnosis/rebirth. In conclusion, it implies that Spirit AND soul, a transformed, perfect spirited-soul being goes to the Pleroma. There it is considered brother and sister of the Aeons. I'm still trying to find the accompanying text, but for now I'll quote this text from "The Sophia of Jesus Christ" ( NHC III, excerpt 117). "Whoever, then, knows the Father in pure knowledge will depart to the Father and repose in Unbegotten Father. But whoever knows him defectively will depart to the defect and the rest of the Eighth.”
This text it clearly states that: ‘in pure knowledge = Gnosis’ will depart to Source in the Pleroma, while those know Him ‘defectively = without Gnosis’ stays in the 8th realm. Makes sense? It does make sense to an extent. The problem that remains is that the soul consists of nano flames which is energy. In the Pleroma there is no energy. When this is correct a soul could not be in the Pleroma, as Wes stated in his post, unless the soul is purified to an extent that it transforms into a soul without energy. Is that what you mean when you use the term spirited soul or perfect soul? It must be a different soul meaning no energy to be part of the Pleroma don’t you agree? Can we then still speak of a soul? Or has the soul become spirit? As I’ve said before, there’s something ‘unknown’, something ‘mysterious’, a divine transformation process. I don't think we should try to understand God's ways with our 'human' mind, that's doomed to fail. Sometimes we just have to admit that we cannot fathom something because we are still equipped with a human mindset. It is written in the GT that the Pleroma is a 'world of Light'. Isn't Light energy? When we say that Source 'IS', does that also imply that Source is not energy? Divine energy perhaps? Do we know what that means? Not just energy, like we think of energy on Earth. It is useless to try to describe Source, that goes way, way, way above our heads! This way the discussion becomes more like a play of words to me, while it doesn't matter to me whether I'm in the Pleroma as a soul or as a spirit. My intention is to share what I have learned from 'hidden' concepts with others, and in doing so I would also like to learn from the insights of others. As soon as we leave our bodies, after death, many processes will go by themselves, determined by the choices we make now, while we are still alive. The most important thing is to experience Gnosis, then this choice will be further finetuned by the 'hidden' knowledge that Spirit is going to give us. My personal yardstick is when I can see for myself that I have gained different, new insights than, for example, six months ago. Then I can tell whether I am making progress or whether I am stuck somewhere in my spiritual development. So far I am surprised about what has emerged in my thinking lately, but more importantly in my heart. I’m on the right track, so to speak.
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Post by Wes Penre on Jul 29, 2020 20:21:25 GMT
Wes wrote: I can't see how we, the souls with their personalities can enter the Pleroma, unless there is something unknown that we still need to figure out.
And also: But it's not 100% clear. It can also be interpreted as if the "fourth race," which is perfected, goes to the Pleroma. But is it only Spirit, and the soul is dissolved, or does it imply that Spirit AND soul go to the Pleroma?
In my opinion there IS something ‘unknown’ indeed, something ‘mysterious’, a divine transformation process. What we call ‘Gnosis’ is the connection with Spirit/Sophia, the biblical version of “Baptised with the Holy Spirit” and as John the Baptist added also: with ‘fire’, when Yeshua asked John to baptize him in water. (Matt 3:11) This means to me that Gnosis is a ‘baptism’ in the Spirit of Sophia with ‘fire’. And ‘fire’ cleanses and transforms the soul and the soul becomes ‘kingless and perfect’, detached and free from the yoke of Ignorance, from darkness. Ready to enter Home/Pleroma once. That's why I’ve made a distinction between #1) soul/body/spirit, #2) soul/spirit/body, and #3) spirited-soul/body. #1 an ignorant soul, voluntary or not . #2 an 'awakened' soul who has' knowledge of redemption' but hasn't received Gnosis or cleaning with ‘fire’, yet . #3 a soul that has received Gnosis and has been transformed by this 'cleansing fire' and made 'perfect' as a result. Very often one speaks of a 'rebirth', of being born again, becoming a new soul, a perfect soul. It is logical that this ‘spirited-soul’ needs to be 'worked on' afterwards, but that doesn’t make the soul less perfect, for it was already declared perfect in God's eyes by Gnosis/rebirth. In conclusion, it implies that Spirit AND soul, a transformed, perfect spirited-soul being goes to the Pleroma. There it is considered brother and sister of the Aeons. I'm still trying to find the accompanying text, but for now I'll quote this text from "The Sophia of Jesus Christ" ( NHC III, excerpt 117). "Whoever, then, knows the Father in pure knowledge will depart to the Father and repose in Unbegotten Father. But whoever knows him defectively will depart to the defect and the rest of the Eighth.”
This text it clearly states that: ‘in pure knowledge = Gnosis’ will depart to Source in the Pleroma, while those know Him ‘defectively = without Gnosis’ stays in the 8th realm. Makes sense? It does make sense to an extent. The problem that remains is that the soul consists of nano flames which is energy. In the Pleroma there is no energy. When this is correct a soul could not be in the Pleroma, as Wes stated in his post, unless the soul is purified to an extent that it transforms into a soul without energy. Is that what you mean when you use the term spirited soul or perfect soul? It must be a different soul meaning no energy to be part of the Pleroma don’t you agree? Can we then still speak of a soul? Or has the soul become spirit? WOW! Look what I just found: This explains it--the Bridal Chamber and everything. It's not the soul that is our personality--it's the MIND. And if we are perfect in our human form, containing all the four aspects of human, the MIND goes to the Pleroma. If we are NOT perfected, we go to Orion. Then, we have the heavy criminals, who are unable to repent, and they stay with the archons. So, the personality seems to go to the Pleroma after all, if we receive Gnosis and start acting through Spirit and behave in a compassionate, empathetic, and loving way. With Gnosis we have a choice. We can now see what is of the Kenoma and what is of Spirit, and we can either continue acting reactively and refuse to change much, or we can change our ways (repent) and become perfected. Then, we are able to enter the Pleroma as Aeons. It says in the gospels that the Monad has a mind, and I think it was Babelos, the first-emanated, who requested to get a mind, and the Monad gave it to her. So, our thinking is done with the mind, which is not material. The soul is made of star-fire and is of Yaldabaoth and inserted into the human, but the mind is separate and is of the Pleroma. Just wanted to share this for now. This might open up a new discussion.
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